The Drug War, Part III

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"I would argue that individuals have rights and responsibilities, not groups such as "the public" or "society"." ... Read More 

"I would argue that individuals have rights and responsibilities, not groups such as "the public" or "society"."

First of all the public and society are made up of many individuals.

If you have a family then you are part of that family.

If you live in a community then you are part of that community.

If you live in the U.S.A. then we can only hope you are an American.

It would be an injustice to allow only certain people certain rights. If an officer pulled over a person with a pound of cocaine how would he be able to determine if he is a responsible user or dealer. Would he be carrying a drug user license?

 

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"Hopefully, you and RR will someday face the truth about the injustice of your war against your fellow humans and their freedoms."

I can't say that every ... Read More 

"Hopefully, you and RR will someday face the truth about the injustice of your war against your fellow humans and their freedoms."

I can't say that every law enforcement, or politician is 100% right, and yes many times peoples rights are violated. As you can't say that every drug user and distributor is a model citizien. Which ever way you slice it drugs are illegal and when officers are acting within the law then they are not violating peoples rights. Every person accused has the opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law, and should be innocent until proven guilty.


I dont know how old you are, but I can only guess that you are in your teens or in your early twenties. I gather from your postings that you are rather inexperienced in life it self. You live in a bubble where you only see the benifets of such topics to your own convenience and fail to see how dangerous these drugs are to people, especialy children.

I have been to third world countries where people would not even be able to define the meaning of freedom. Where the governments have total control on such things as the media, where you can work or how much of certain foods you can purchase.




You curse our government for denying you the freedoms that would satisfy your cravings, but in all actuality you don't even know how good you have it and how free you really are.

 

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"Not until that "peaceful person" breaks a law designed to protect the public at large."

First, I agree with you about "follow the money". ... Read More 

"Not until that "peaceful person" breaks a law designed to protect the public at large."

First, I agree with you about "follow the money".

I also agree that most people who support unjust laws believe that those laws are just because they "protect the public at large"

I would argue that individuals have rights and responsibilities, not groups such as "the public" or "society".

For a specific example, consider a person who is siting in his living room drinking a beer during alcohol prohibition. Whose rights was he violating? I am saying that you cannot point to a specific individual whose rights were being violated.

Since he would not be a criminal today, the laws that made him a criminal were clearly arbitrary, unlike
a just law that prohibits theft.

Blind obedience to man-made laws is not a virtue. I would say that there is a moral obligation to oppose unjust laws that violate human rights.

 

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"Michael Phelps himself admitted he did wrong, thats why he came out and later apologized for his irresponsible behavior."

Nonsense. Mr. Phelps is sorry that ... Read More 

"Michael Phelps himself admitted he did wrong, thats why he came out and later apologized for his irresponsible behavior."

Nonsense. Mr. Phelps is sorry that he went to a party with strangers and was photographed violating some drug laws (taking a hit from a bong). He was given a choice between:

1) Tell the truth that what he does on his own time is his own business. This truth would cause him to lose millions of dollars in product endorsements, be thrown out of the sport that he loves and has dedicated his life to, prosecuted and convicted of several "crimes", and lose his freedom.

2) Or, he could tell a little lie and be rewarded with millions of dollars, allowed to play the sport that he loves, and keep out of jail.

It was an easy choice for him just like it would be an easy choice for 99.9999% of the people on this planet.

Besides the Pope and I am not sure of him, I can think of only one person who would do the right thing under those circumstances. He was a well-respected football player who gave up a very well-paid career in order to fight and ultimately die in a war that he strongly believed in. Unfortunately, he was unintentionally and tragically killed by one of his comrades in situation called "friendly fire".

Also, tragically, before his death, he had become disillusioned and began to see that the war, for which he had sacrificed everything, was unjust and based on lies. He had the courage to face that truth and the integrity to voice those forbidden thoughts. His name is Pat Tillman.

Hopefully, you and RR will someday face the truth about the injustice of your war against your fellow humans and their freedoms.

 

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I'm surprised that no one knows the solution to the "Drug War" problem. Hire assistant Chief Joslin and his mouthpiece LT Evins. They have a knack for causing ... Read More 

I'm surprised that no one knows the solution to the "Drug War" problem. Hire assistant Chief Joslin and his mouthpiece LT Evins. They have a knack for causing chaos among the people who work for them. Maybe the drug Czars would get disgusted and take their business to some other country. "County Judge" IN YOUR DREAMS!!

 

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"You cannot name any real person whose rights have been violated by the peaceful person who was minding his own business. "

Not until that "peaceful ... Read More 

"You cannot name any real person whose rights have been violated by the peaceful person who was minding his own business. "

Not until that "peaceful person" breaks a law designed to protect the public at large.

Like I said, stick to your "follow the money" argument. It is much more convincing and at least half right.

 

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"heroin, cocaine, lsd, X and crystal meth"

GUOCB -- Here is some info on cocaine and meth. I will tackle one or two more of those drugs tomorrow and ... Read More 

"heroin, cocaine, lsd, X and crystal meth"

GUOCB -- Here is some info on cocaine and meth. I will tackle one or two more of those drugs tomorrow and the rest a day later.

The infamous drug "Meth" is a product of the drug war. In particular it is a result of the illegalization of cocaine just like "bathtub gin" and "white lightning" were produced by the illegalization of alcohol. Drug fighters and illegalizers are personally responsible for all the harm that is associated with these products because it is their wars that created them. It is their violent and criminal intervention into the free market that produced these black market drugs.

Cocaine is a molecule or substance that is produced by the coca bush. It is a much-valued plant extract which, in its raw form, has been utilized safely for more than a thousand years. It is a naturally produced stimulant and appetite suppressant which is also valued for its nutritional, medicinal, ceremonial, and recreational benefits.

Is pure cocaine a dangerous, hard drug that should be banned? No. It is only hard and dangerous when it is illegal. The only times that it has ever been associated with crime and violence is when it has been illegalized by a foreign government such as the U.S. In South America, where it is native, there were never any problems with the coca bush for five thousand years until some North Americans intruded with their drug war.

Like many other drugs, when using the pure extract, it can be dangerous at a high dose and, safe and beneficial and at smaller doses. It is not the poison that kills you, it is the dosage. Many products such as vitamins are beneficial at one level and harmful at another. Another fact is that there is no such thing as drug that is good for everyone or a drug that is bad for everyone. Human beings come in many varieties with many different body chemistries. A few beers can be healthy for many people while a quart of whiskey is probably dangerous. It is also true that some people have a bad reaction to a particular drug and should completely avoid it. For example, there are people who are nice people when sober but jerks when they drink. Clearly, they should abstain from that drug and look for the underlying cause of their inappropiate behavior. I had a friend with a severe alcohol and coke problem who turned himself around. He found himself in a bible study group. It filled a need that he had. He was not beaten into submission by GUOCB or some war machine. He went his own way, confronted the challanges that were presented to him, and dealt with them as best he could. Isn't that a big part of life? Isn't that what determines a persons character?

Cocaine tea, tea brewed from the leaves of the coca bush (the divine plant of the Incas), is one hundred percent safe and healthy. Likewise, chewing the leaves is 100% safe. Medicinal plants in their raw state are quite safe. What about the refined product, white powder, snorting, and injecting? A measured amount of the white powder in a drink can also be beneficial to many and as safe as tea. The person (I forget his name) who introduced cocaine wine to Europe was awarded a gold medal for his service to humanity. Pope Leo was a regular consumer of this drink and praised its virtues untill he died at the age of ninety seven.

Obviously, shoving a pile of powder up your nose or injecting anything is dangerous. Likewise, smoking the concentrate is not recommended. These dangerous ways to consume are caused by illegalization which makes these drugs extremely expensive. Smoking, snorting, and injecting are very much cheaper and more efficient methods of ingesting because they bypass the digestive system.

The U.S. Government Licensed Drug Cartel benefits billions every year from the illegalization of the coca bush and its main extract, cocaine. The GLDC produces and markets a group of drugs called amphetamines that are substitutes for cocaine and similar drugs such as Ritalin which are pushed onto school children who do not adapt well the regimentation of government schools. Some of the street names for these drugs are speed, uppers, crank, and diet-pills-that-work. The reason why medicinal plants and extracts have been illegalized by powerful interest groups is money. Plants and plant extracts are not patentable because they were created by nature. They grow wild. Rich people can't make any money from them if they are legal because they can be produced by poor people for pennies.

The legalization of cocaine would immediately take at least ten billion dollars per year from the GLDC and another ten billion dollars a year from the criminal injustice industrial complex. All that money (stolen loot) would go back into the pockets of the taxpayers and consumers. If people could purchase coca tea, a natural and nutritious home remedy, for a few pennies per cup, no one would pay ten thousand percent more for some potentially dangerous phamacuetical substitute.

 

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"Being reckless might be tolerable because you have the ability and the choice to adjust, if he is driving reckless but is not high or drunk" ... Read More 

"Being reckless might be tolerable because you have the ability and the choice to adjust, if he is driving reckless but is not high or drunk"

My example was a person who drives in a reckless manner but is substance-free, NOT under the influence of any drug. So, you did not answer the question accurately.

"I would never find it tolerable for my son to be a drug user."

Okay, but I still do not understand how you could possible believe that drinking a few beers with his friends in a safe place is more dangerous than being sober while driving ninety miles per hour in a 30 mph zone. What would you do if your nineteen year old defied your policy of zero-tolerance? What could you do? You certainly would not try to beat him into submission or disown him, would you?

 

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"He might be a good swimmer but he speaks like a complete moron."

Very funny. I would also label your neighbor from TX, W, as a poor speaker. But, I'm not ... Read More 

"He might be a good swimmer but he speaks like a complete moron."

Very funny. I would also label your neighbor from TX, W, as a poor speaker. But, I'm not a good speaker either.

 

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"...because when you commit a crime, in theory you violate everyone's rights to live in a crime free society."

In theory, maybe. In fact, no. You cannot ... Read More 

"...because when you commit a crime, in theory you violate everyone's rights to live in a crime free society."

In theory, maybe. In fact, no. You cannot name any real person whose rights have been violated by the peaceful person who was minding his own business.

 

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"Now, suppose that you had a nineteen year old son. Would you prefer your son to be "substance-free" but a bit of a reckless driver or a "user" ... Read More 

"Now, suppose that you had a nineteen year old son. Would you prefer your son to be "substance-free" but a bit of a reckless driver or a "user" who is otherwise a responsible person like Mr. Phelps and his friends, and millions of other young people, middle people, and old people?"

I do have a son and I pray to god that he is never influenced by drugs. Being reckless might be tolerable because you have the ability and the choice to adjust, if he is driving reckless but is not high or drunk, he may still be able to react in a life threatening situation. I strongly beleive that if he were high or drunk it would impair his reaction in a dangerous or life threatening situation.

I would never find it tolerable for my son to be a drug user. Unlike you, I look at what might happen down the road, health risks in particular.

Michael Phelps himself admitted he did wrong, thats why he came out and later apologized for his irresponsible behavior.

Again, its to bad the irresponsible users are ruing it for you.

 

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"Michael Phelps, occasionally enjoys having a few beers and a few bong hits..."

Oh yeah, now there's a good example of why not to do drugs. He might be a ... Read More 

"Michael Phelps, occasionally enjoys having a few beers and a few bong hits..."

Oh yeah, now there's a good example of why not to do drugs. He might be a good swimmer but he speaks like a complete moron.

 

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"I define an innocent person as a person who does not violate another persons rights."

When you are charged with a crime, the State files charges on behalf ... Read More 

"I define an innocent person as a person who does not violate another persons rights."

When you are charged with a crime, the State files charges on behalf of the people of the State, because when you commit a crime, in theory you violate everyone's rights to live in a crime free society.

So, your definition of "innocent" does not hold water in the real world.

 

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"Why is it mandatory that a business owner install a wheel chair ramp for a disabled person?"

Because our lawmakers are freedom-violating thugs. Of course, ... Read More 

"Why is it mandatory that a business owner install a wheel chair ramp for a disabled person?"

Because our lawmakers are freedom-violating thugs. Of course, it should not be mandatory. Private property rights have been destroyed just like most other basic rights. There are even some lawmakers who want to charge people to breathe, tax the air! Clearly, these clowns are out of control.

GUOCB -- I have a question for you. A while back, I saw a newspaper report about Al Gore's son. He was stopped by the police for driving ninety miles per hour in a thirty mph zone. He was tested for alcohol and drugs and found to be clean, a member of the substance-free master race, like yourself. That fact was used by Big Al's friends to paint the young Gore as a responsible young man who is not some low-life drinker-druggie.

I also read a story that the olympic swimmer, Michael Phelps, occasionally enjoys having a few beers and a few bong hits with his friends who also appear to be normal, well-adjusted, young people who probably do not commit any of the terrible crimes that you associate with alcohol and drugs.

Now, suppose that you had a nineteen year old son. Would you prefer your son to be "substance-free" but a bit of a reckless driver or a "user" who is otherwise a responsible person like Mr. Phelps and his friends, and millions of other young people, middle people, and old people?

PS. I will answer your concerns about "heroin, cocaine, lsd, X and crystal meth" when I get some time tomorrow morning. You are a tough, persistant, hard-core, freedom-violator and it takes time and effort to respond to all your concerns and attacks. Fortunately, I am just as hard-core as you. :)

 

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"You obviously define "innocent" differently than the courts, law schools, police academies, and just about everyone else in the educated World." ... Read More 

"You obviously define "innocent" differently than the courts, law schools, police academies, and just about everyone else in the educated World."

I define an innocent person as a person who does not violate another persons rights. A peaceful person who does not steal, assault, rob, rape, pillage, plunder, etc. or disturb the peace like some fool who annoys his neighbors with loud music. A peaceful person who minds his own business. This is also the same definition as the concept of natural law also known as the laws of justice which are recognized by many educated people and many others with no formal education, just common sense.

 

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I had that war with fat and I got creamed! I didn't even get to put up a good fight...it was a TKO in the first round.

A little advice...don't ever go to war that's ... Read More 

I had that war with fat and I got creamed! I didn't even get to put up a good fight...it was a TKO in the first round.

A little advice...don't ever go to war that's almost impossible to win. (grilled steak, chocolate/pecan fudge cake,mashed potatoes with gravy)comprise the other side of the war on fat and they don't fight fair.

 

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"99% of all alcohol consumers do NOT commit any of the crimes that you list. They are not reckless drivers who kill people and they do not beat up their wives and children"

Although ... Read More 

"99% of all alcohol consumers do NOT commit any of the crimes that you list. They are not reckless drivers who kill people and they do not beat up their wives and children"

Although your figures our entirely wrong, I don't have a problem with responsible drinkers and neighther does the law.

If it were possible for drug users and abusers to use heroin, cocaine, lsd, X and crystal meth responsibly then maybe it would be legal. But until then like it or not it will remain illegal. It is the irresponsible users that are ruing it for you and all the other drug growing, drug using, "law biding citiziens", my point is that you should be upset with them, not at us for trying to protect our selves from the crimes of abusers and misusers.

"Then, what about Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence (I suggest that you read it), John Adams, Patrick Henry, George Washington and all the other founders who were also opposed to all laws that violated natural rights?"

Even during the time the Dec of Indep was written, there were many laws that were not imposed because at the time these leaders didnt envision many of the things we encounter today. Not all men were free when the DOI was enacted. If you know history you know that slavery was abolished almost 90 years later. How about the child labor laws that were later imposed or womens rights to vote? These were all laws that these men never took into consideration. Why is it mandatory that a business owner install a wheel chair ramp for a disabled person? The majority of people in america arent disable. My point is that as time changes so do the trends and the attitudes of people, and with those changes laws must be modified to protect the entire nation as a whole.

 

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"By the way, why don't you have a war on fat."

I believe California is well on the way toward that goal.

 

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"They are innocent people,"

You obviously define "innocent" differently than the courts, law schools, police academies, and just about everyone ... Read More 

"They are innocent people,"

You obviously define "innocent" differently than the courts, law schools, police academies, and just about everyone else in the educated World.

May I suggest you enroll in "Philosophy of Law 101" at your local Junior College.

 

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"Prohibition was imposed because during these tough economic times many people (men) were drowning their problems in alcohol, and in turn were committing violent crimes ... Read More 

"Prohibition was imposed because during these tough economic times many people (men) were drowning their problems in alcohol, and in turn were committing violent crimes against women and children."

All your facts, statistics, and analysis that demonize alcohol do not justify the punishment of innocent human beings. 99% of all alcohol consumers do NOT commit any of the crimes that you list. They are not reckless drivers who kill people and they do not beat up their wives and children. As a group, they are not inferior to self-proclaimed, alcohol-free supremacists or any other group of pompous fools. The average, typical consumer is not inferior to you or anyone else. I would not be suprised if most auto accidents are caused by drivers who are tea-totalers.

By the way, mass murderers, serial killers, and child molesters are notorius for being "substance-free". Just like drug fighters and illegalizers, they get their kicks out of abusing human beings. Hitler was anti-drug, anti-alcohol, and anti-tobacco. Maybe we should put ten million substance abuse experts in prison, in the name of prevention.

Here is one more example: By all accounts, when W Bush was younger and partied with alcohol and other drugs, he was a nice guy who never hurt anyone. He respected individual rights and never committed violence against those who would not bow to him. He also never dropped bombs on anyone. After stopping the use of intoxicants and becoming a substance-abuse expert and drug fighter, he turned into a mass murderer who thinks nothing about dropping millions of pounds of bombs on poor people who never did anything against him, his family, or fellow countrymen. It is clear to me that he was a much better person when he was younger.

 

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"Did you know that Lincoln suffered from severe depression and through out his life he had many thoughts of suicide."

Then, what about Thomas Jefferson, the ... Read More 

"Did you know that Lincoln suffered from severe depression and through out his life he had many thoughts of suicide."

Then, what about Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence (I suggest that you read it), John Adams, Patrick Henry, George Washington and all the other founders who were also opposed to all laws that violated natural rights?

 

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"To ignore the danger that these drugs present to society would itself be guilt by omission."

Medicinal plants and extracts along with alcohol are the safest ... Read More 

"To ignore the danger that these drugs present to society would itself be guilt by omission."

Medicinal plants and extracts along with alcohol are the safest drugs in the world. They have been safely produced and consumed for centuries, just like alcohol. There are no drugs that are safer. They are safer than skiing or mountain climbing, or playing football, or eating too much, or fatty foods, or obesity. By the way, why don't you have a war on fat. Enact some anti-fat laws and then send the police to assault and arrest millions of fat people and the food dealers who supply them with dangerous fatty foods. Put millions of them in prison and, of course, give them a choice between prison and forced treatment because you are a true humanitarian. Naturally, after millions of arrests, some resentment and anger might develop so you would need a few thousand SWAT teams to arrest any potentially dangerous offenders who might object to your war or them.

I am willing to bet that obesity kills more people than medicinal plants so your new war would certainly be justified. Right? What about the basic rights of overeaters and others who like fatty foods to go their own way? The hell with them because it would be good for society to have less death and disease, right? The hell with freedom, individual rights, and our heritage of liberty, right?

 

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"There you go again. It is an insult to the dedicated and decent folks who risk their lives to take scumbags off the streets to compare them with 1930s NAZI storm troopers ... Read More 

"There you go again. It is an insult to the dedicated and decent folks who risk their lives to take scumbags off the streets to compare them with 1930s NAZI storm troopers kicking in the doors of the Jews."

The problem is that 99% of the people who are being arrested today are NOT scumbags. They are innocent people, just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. They are not inferior to you or anyone else. They are no more criminals than you are.

The crimes that were committed by the German government were the crimes of treating good human beings as criminals. The crimes that they committed were the crimes of sending SWAT teams to attack ordinary, decent human beings which are the exact same crimes that are being committed today in Amerika. The crimes were kicking in the doors, invading and ransacking the homes ordinary familes who are just as innocent as your family, terrorizing them, and killing anyone who was thought to resist which is exactly what is being done today except that the Nazi goons probably did not scream obsenities into the faces of mothers holding their children or scream threats to blow off the heads of everyone who did not show lightning fast obedience to the commands being screamed at them, like the government thugs do today.

The crimes committed by the Nazis were the brutal enforcement of unjust laws which are the exact same crimes that are being committed today except for the gas chambers. Treating human beings like they are worse than murderers just because their papers are not in order is a Nazi crime that is being repeated in every city and town across the U.S. today.

Likewise, there many millions of arrests today that do not use Gestapo tactics but are also crimes. Giving an innocent person the choice between prison and forced treatment is also a major crime that has been committed millions of times by the U.S. government.

When the police enforce a just law such as a law that prohibits theft, they are acting properly and doing the right thing. When the police enforce unjust laws, they are committing a crime. If not, then the Nazi's did not commit any crimes because they were just following the law.

One problem is that you have difficulty in seeing the difference between justice and the law. The are not the same. Justice is above the law. You are ignoring all the crimes that are being committed in the name of the law. The lawmakers and their enforcement agents are commiting more crimes than the bad guys because the vast majority of the laws that they enact and enforce are unjust laws that violate basic human rights.

"What machine is that, Hollywood and the ACLU? Cesar Chavez? The Beatles? The entire music industry?"

The drug war machine. The law-police-prison-industrial-complex. The government war machine. All the government wars against the American people and their freedoms.

Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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"Here is one by Abraham Lincoln that you dodged like a vampire being confronted with a cross, "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts ... Read More 

"Here is one by Abraham Lincoln that you dodged like a vampire being confronted with a cross, "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

Did you know that Lincoln suffered from severe depression and through out his life he had many thoughts of suicide. Although Lincoln was considered to be a great president. I would not say that every decision he made was the right one. Crime during the Lincoln era was not as wide spread as its been in recent history.

Prohibition was imposed because during these tough economic times many people (men) were drowning their problems in alcohol, and in turn were commiting violent crimes against women and children. It was the women that took a stand and demanded that prohibition be imposed. In a time when women had little rights, alcohol related crimes more than often went unpunished.


Your wrong about why prohibition was abolished, it wasn't because some one had an idea the crime wars between the gangsters and law enforcement would stop. It was because of the economy. The law makers felt that it would be in the best interest of the country to legalize the production and sale of alcohol. After the great market crash they felt that the distribution of alcohol would create more jobs and in turn help the economy. Alcohol was again legalized but with greater restrictions.

 

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Here are some facts and statistics on why drugs our outlawed:

The Impact of Alcohol Abuse on American Society
Number of traffic fatalities annually related to drugs ... Read More 

Here are some facts and statistics on why drugs our outlawed:

The Impact of Alcohol Abuse on American Society
Number of traffic fatalities annually related to drugs and/or alcohol

Alcohol related crashes kills someone in the U.S. every 22 minutes. At any minute, one of 50 drivers on the road is drunk and every weekend night, one out of 10 is drunk.
According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, there are 105,000 alcohol related deaths annually due to drunken drivers and alcohol related injuries and diseases. AFA journal - 6/90
Alcohol related accidents are the leading cause of deaths among young people. Dallas Times - Sat., 6/9/90
The damage caused by alcohol impaired drivers is the same as if a Boeing 747 with over 500 passengers crashed every eight days killing everyone.
Drunk drivers are responsible for 1/2 of highway fatal injuries.
65 people each day die on our highways due to alcohol. California Capitol Report - 11/89
In 1988, 25,000 Americans were killed in auto accidents involving alcohol. Over one half million were injured. AFA journal - 1/90
Number of handgun or violent crimes annually related to drugs and/or alcohol and Number of murders annually related to drugs and/or alcohol?

One half of all traffic accidents are alcohol related. U.S.A. Today - 1/24/90
An estimated 23,200 murdered in U.S. last year Newsweek - 3/25/91
Of all murders, alcohol was involved in at least 34% of cases.
Rape - More than 1/2 of rapists had been drinking.
Child abuse - mothers convicted are 3 times more likely to be alcoholics - fathers 10 times more likely.
Suicide - Up to 36% of victims were drinking just before. Prodigy Services Co. - 3/3/92
Heavy drinking is involved in 60% of violent crimes, 30% of suicides, and 80% of fire and drowning accidents.
The suicide rate of alcoholics is 30 times that of the general population. AFA journal - 1/90
The percentage of households that were scenes of violent crime or of burglary or property crime in 1989 was 24.9%. LA Times - 9/3/90
Among men arrested for serious crime in 12 major cities, 53% (in Phoenix) to 79% (New York) tested positive for illicit drugs in voluntary urine analysis at time of arrest. Insight - 2/29/89
About 2/3 of people arrested in larger cities for felonies. . .test positive for illegal drugs. Economist - 1/21/89
Annual cost to health! insurance industry related to drugs and/or alcohol.

More than half of all confirmed abuse reports and 75% of child deaths involve drug or alcohol abuse on the part of the parents. Time - 1/27/92
The use of alcohol cost $15 billion (1983) for health care and treatment.
The economic cost of alcohol abuse is projected to be $150 billion in 1995. Alcohol & Health - U.S. dept. of H.H.S. 1/90
The economic cost of America’s drug habit is somewhere between $50 billion and $100 billion a year. (Does not include alcohol) Economist - 1/21/89
Number of babies born annually with problems related to drugs and/or alcohol.

2.9% of 1,000 live births have fetal alcohol syndrome.
Alcohol & Health - U.S. Dept. of H.H.S. - 1/90
It is costing one half billion dollars per year to treat F.A.S. and F.A.E.
It is estimated that 375,000 babies born each year are exposed to one or more illicit drugs prenatally.
The Office of National Drug Control Policy uses an estimate of 100,000 drug exposed babies per year. Maternal Drug Abuse and Drug Exposed children - U.S. Dept. of H.H. S. - 9/92
The cost of government to prepare drug babies to enter kindergarten will soon reach $15 billion per year. Reader’s Digest - 2/91
More than 1,000 babies a day are being born drug damaged. More than 100,000 per year are "crack babies." CBS Nightly News - 4/5/90
Aids related to drug use.

One baby with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome will cost $405,000 in direct special services from birth to 65 years. San Diego County Dept. of Health Services
Newborns got AIDS at a faster rate than gays or IV drug users 30-40% of children born to infected women are HIV positive. Newsweek - 6/25/90
One in 2,200 infants born in the U.S. in 1989 was infected with HIV. Journal of A.M.A. - 4/3/91
Prenatally acquired.. .AIDS is the 9th leading cause of death among children 1 to 4 years.
80% of all pediatric AIDS cases are attributed to transmission from mothers at risk for HIV infection. IV drug abuse is a major contributing factor. Nearly 75% of Pediatric AIDS is attributed to maternal transmission involving IV drug use. Maternal Drug Abuse and Drug Exposed Children

 

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"So, according to you, it is okay if 51% of the population voted to outlaw the 49%. It was okay for the majority in Nazi Germany to illegalize Jews, Gypsies, and queers, ... Read More 

"So, according to you, it is okay if 51% of the population voted to outlaw the 49%. It was okay for the majority in Nazi Germany to illegalize Jews, Gypsies, and queers, and treat them as criminals. It was okay for some majority of morons in fascist Amerika to institute alcohol prohibition and treat millions of beer drinkers as criminals."


No I dont beleive everyone who defendes freedom is a low life good for nothing theif.

I too have defended freedom and served this great nation during war and peace time. But I defended it for reasons other than the ones you crave.

There is no comparison with the laws that we enforce in america to the crimes commited by the Nazis. The nazis ambitions were not for the benefit of the entire people but for only one group.

Yes, people die in drug raids pushers as well as law enforcement. We all know there are crooked cops out there that dont follow the rules but the majority try to serve with honor and honesty.

The Nazis and Hitler commited genocide. So NO, there is no comparison.

You suggest that there are good law biding citiziens out there that want to grow their own drugs on their own property. Would you agree that there are also scum bags out there that want to grow their own drugs and poison the children of this nation. If the law allowed for honest law biding citiziens to grow their own drugs for their own personal use, then that wouldnt be fair for the scum bags. So the law must be written across the board and enforced on everyone.

"So, according to you, it is okay if 51% of the population voted to outlaw the 49%."

Your numbers are grossly exagerated.
Theory not fact.

 

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"Your comments are based on theory not facts."

GUOCB, I have also provided many facts including direct quotes from the people who founded this country. I ... Read More 

"Your comments are based on theory not facts."

GUOCB, I have also provided many facts including direct quotes from the people who founded this country. I have also asked some straight-forward questions that you have dodged, so far. And, I have done my best to answer your questions. I have also povided my private email address.

Here is one by Abraham Lincoln that you dodged like a vampire being confronted with a cross, "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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"I'm sure there were many things that were not outlawed back then. For instance speeding on the freeway or perhaps running a red light." ... Read More 

"I'm sure there were many things that were not outlawed back then. For instance speeding on the freeway or perhaps running a red light."

Medicinal plants and extracts along with alcohol have been satisfying human wants and needs for hundreds and thousands of years just like today. People who own roads have the right to make any rule they want for those who use their roads. The distinction between medicinal plants and roads is that no one or group owns all the green plants on the planet. You own the green plants that are growing on your property and your neighbor owns the plants that are growing on his land. The concept of private property is very easy to understand.

"My point is that its not only the government that wants these laws its the people as well.."

So, according to you, it is okay if 51% of the population voted to outlaw the 49%. It was okay for the majority in Nazi Germany to illegalize Jews, Gypsies, and queers, and treat them as criminals. It was okay for some majority of morons in fascist Amerika to institute alcohol prohibition and treat millions of beer drinkers as criminals.

You are wrong because Justice, God's law, or natural law is above all man-made laws. The victims of unjust laws are not the real criminals. The real criminals are those who support unjust laws. It was not the Jews who were the criminals in Nazi Germany and it was not the beer drinkers in Amerika who were the criminals during the war on alcohol.

"If you would please answer these qustions on your next posting. How would you like it if you found out that a technician high on cocaine worked on the airplane you were flying on? Or the doctor that was performing surgery on one of your family members was high on some kind of acid trip. All because it was lagal to use drugs."

How would you like it if you found out that a technician drunk on alcohol worked on the airplane you were flying on? Or the doctor that was performing surgery on one of your family members had been awake for the previous three days eating, playing games, debating online, and just having a good time engaging in legal activities? Clearly, your questions are foolish.

"I would be all for your type of people wiping your self of the face of the planet."

By my type, do you mean all those who defend the Constitutional and universal principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility? Are you upset that in a free society you would not be able to use government guns and thugs to stomp on some scapegoat in order to make you feel superior?

"You could be high all the time and when you run out of money you can go rob your neighbor for a hit."

So, according to you, everyone who defends freedom is a lazy, low- life, good-for-nothing thief. Interesting because that is exacty what the Nazi's thought about the Jews. And, it is exactly what white supemacists say about dark-skinned humans. What a suprise that all fascist, freedom-violating thugs think alike.

"We wouldnt have to worry about our children playing in the front yard because all the drug users and distributors would all be on their own turf destroying each other."

It is your drug war that produced drug gangs and gang wars. Here are a few questions that you won't answer because they exposes the violence, immorality, and inhumanity of drug fighters and illegalizers.

Have you ever heard of Al Capone and Elliot Ness? What happened when drug fighters and illegalizers were allowed to illegalize the drug alcohol? What were the results when these drug fighters and illegalizers were allowed to treat millions of alcohol consumers, producers, and dealers as criminals? What was the result when drug fighters and illegalizers authorized armies of police gangs to assault, rob, arrest, and even murder the victims of their war? I will help you. Their violent and criminal intervention into the free market produced an equally violent underground market. It produced massive violations of civil liberties, government gangs, private gangs, and gang warfare which endangered people of all ages, especially the young and the poor. Prohibition wars not benifit little kids.

 

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FF,

Your comments are based on theory not facts.

 

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"I think somebody already tried that. It's called California."

Fortunately for California they are moving east(MA)in droves.

 

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"I think somebody already tried that. It's called California."

Fortunately for California they are moving east(MA)in droves.

 

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"I think somebody already tried that. It's called California."

Fortunately for California they are moving east(MA)in droves.

 

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"What we need is more cooperation from the governments of these drug producing countries."

Nonsense. The U.S. is the biggest drug producing country in the ... Read More 

"What we need is more cooperation from the governments of these drug producing countries."

Nonsense. The U.S. is the biggest drug producing country in the world. What we need is more governments and more individuals to tell you and your fellow warmongers to take all your wars against human freedom and shove them.

"Most of these illegal drugs consumed by Americans are imported from other countries."

More nonsense. The Government Licensed Drug Cartel legally purchases and distributes tons of opiates every year and many other illegal drugs. In fact, all their prescription drugs are illegal for Americans unless they pay ten thousand times the cost to the licensed crooks who are robbing them. The GLDC are also the biggest and only drug pushers. They spend more than a billion dollars every day pushing their drugs in the mass media. They spend more on advertising than all other industries combined. They own the main-steam media and the vast majority of lawmakers. Their latest multi-billion dollar theft is their laws that prevent Americans from buying drugs from Canada because Canadian drugs are much, much cheaper even though they are the exact same drugs that are sold in the USA.

Regarding this massive theft of money and freedom, here is a question for Give Us Our Country Back and anyone else who blames the poor and disadvantaged for taking away their country and everything else. If the US government is only protecting you from being poisoned by Canadian drugs, why arn't Canadians droping like flies since they consume tons of those same drugs that are approved by their government?

Wake up America! It is not the poor and disadvantaged who have robbed you of your wealth and freedoms. It is your own government! It is not poor people in foreign countries that are taxing and regulating you to death. It is your own government!

By the way, when some organization forces you to pay for protection that you do not want, that is NOT protection, it is a protection racket.

 

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"Why don't you get with your local congressman and see what they can do for you. "

I think somebody already tried that. It's called California.

 

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"I'M POSITIVE THAT YOU ARE WRONG. The people who founded this country never outlawed medicinal plants or plant-derived drugs. Opiates, cannabis, and cocaine were completely ... Read More 

"I'M POSITIVE THAT YOU ARE WRONG. The people who founded this country never outlawed medicinal plants or plant-derived drugs. Opiates, cannabis, and cocaine were completely legal"

I'm sure there were many things that were not outlawed back then. For instance speeding on the freeway or perhaps running a red light. But we impose laws and we sometimes amend them because they make sense and they protect us. Laws are made by the people for the people. We often elect officials with the hopes that they will follow through with the promises made to us are kept.

For example if we go back a few years to New York City, mayor Gulliani promised if elected he would do everything in his power to reduce the crime rate in the city. The people of the city beleived in him so he was elected. My point is that its not only the government that wants these laws its the people as well. I can guaratee you that if the law were to back down and let every one do as they please, the majority of the communities in the country would complain to the police on why they are not doing enough.

If you would please answer these qustions on your next posting.
How would you like it if you found out that a technician high on cocaine worked on the airplane you were flying on? Or the doctor that was performing surgery on one of your family members was high on some kind of acid trip. All because it was lagal to use drugs.

In a perfect world one might grow his own drugs and use it without harming anyone else, but unfortunatley not in this one.


It would be nice for both our sake if you had your own land where you could live and do as you please. If you stayed on your side and we stayed on ours. You would impose your own laws if any. We could impose ours. You would even be able to take the constitution, twist it and used it to your advantage and your personal gain. I would be all for your type of people wiping your self of the face of the planet. You could be high all the time and when you run out of money you can go rob your neighbor for a hit. Then when he runs out he can do the same to you. You wouldnt even have to worry about the law protecting your children or other family members because you get to live as liberal as you please. My taxes would even go down bacuse I wouldnt even have to pay for your buddies daily room and board at the San Quentin Inn.

We could live on our side in peace and tranquility. We wouldnt have to worry about our children playing in the front yard because all the drug users and distributors would all be on their own turf destroying each other. I think your right, it might work. Why don't you get with your local congressman and see what they can do for you. You could have your perfect world and we could have ours.

Your argument is solid for the sake of radicalism and liberalism.

 

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"Using SWAT teams to serve warrants against peaceful people..."

There you go again. It is an insult to the dedicated and decent folks who risk their lives ... Read More 

"Using SWAT teams to serve warrants against peaceful people..."

There you go again. It is an insult to the dedicated and decent folks who risk their lives to take scumbags off the streets to compare them with 1930s NAZI storm troopers kicking in the doors of the Jews.

Any 12 year old kid knows just from watching TV that SWAT teams are used when the suspects to be arrested are known or suspected of being armed and dangerous, usually very dangerous.
Law enforcement comes a callin' prepared for the worst because of the known threat involved with drug dealers who are armed and very dangerous critters. They don't take chances with their own lives and they should not be required to. They are dealing with the worst that society and the drug cartels can produce.

"You must admit that the drug war machine has become evil."

Not unless I agree that the laws against certain drugs are inherently evil and immoral. I don't. They might be ineffectual, they might even be unjustly or unequally applied in certain cases, but the laws are not evil in their intent. The criminal justice system is far from perfect and I would even go so far as to say down right corrupt in many areas, but that is a whole other issue and tied to the human failure factor.

“The people who are part of the machine that has transformed the "land of the free" into the world's leading prison state need to be confronted with their crimes, violence, and inhumanity."

What machine is that, Hollywood and the ACLU? Cesar Chavez? The Beatles? The entire music industry? Who or what created the demand for the drugs in the first place? Every aspect of the war on drugs, for better or worse, has evolved from the fact that there was a certain percentage of society that abused and demanded these dangerous drugs. To ignore the danger that these drugs present to society would itself be guilt by omission.

 

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"Your continued inflammatory and factually inaccurate rhetoric in this regard distracts from your argument to legalize of all known substances regardless of the inherent ... Read More 

"Your continued inflammatory and factually inaccurate rhetoric in this regard distracts from your argument to legalize of all known substances regardless of the inherent danger thereof. It does not help make your case and impeaches your credibility on the entire subject.

It is true that I am angry about all the injustice that is being committed in the name of the law. And, the injustice is extreme. Using SWAT teams to serve warrants against peaceful people who are suspected of violating some ridiculous, unjust law is outrageous. Treating human beings like they are worse than murderers just because their papers are not in order (unlicensed consumers, producers, and businessmen) is no different than the way that the Nazi's treated the Jews just before they herded them into gas chambers. And yes, it is true that I confront everyone who supports this injustice because they need to be confronted. You must admit that the drug war machine has become evil. The fact that all this evil is legal does not make it right and it does not absolve the guilty of their personal responsibility. The "I was just following orders" defense was even declared invalid by U.S law at the Nuremberg trials. The police, judges, prosecutors, and lawmakers in Nazi Germany were the real criminals even though everything the did was legal according to their laws. Justice is above all man-made laws.

The people who are part of the machine that has transformed the "land of the free" into the world's leading prison state need to be confronted with their crimes, violence, and inhumanity.

 

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"In other words, you don't have the right to murder, assault, rob, and arrest millions of innocent people just because they do not pass your voodoo, arbitrary test ... Read More 

"In other words, you don't have the right to murder, assault, rob, and arrest millions of innocent people just because they do not pass your voodoo, arbitrary test of purity anymore than the Nazi's had that right."

If law enforcement officials acting in accordance with the 4th Amendment, conduct a search under proper warrant, seize evidence, subdue and arrest criminal offenders and use reasonable force to do so, it is absurd and blatently ignorant of due process to call that "murder, assault, or robbery".

Justifiable homicide, as with self defense, is not murder. Seizing evidence pursuant to a proper arrest is not robbery. Using reasonable force to subdue and arrest a criminal suspect is not assault. This has all been upheld as legal and Constitutional by the courts for a couple hundred years.

Your continued inflammatory and factually inaccurate rhetoric in this regard distracts from your argument to legalize of all known substances regardless of the inherent danger thereof. It does not help make your case and impeaches your credibility on the entire subject.

 

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"The problem is that there are too many people running around without personal responsibility. Many of them are running the government." ... Read More 

"The problem is that there are too many people running around without personal responsibility. Many of them are running the government."

I agree.

What you describe is a fantasy land, an idyllic image of what a totally free society should be. The reality of human nature dooms all attempts of achieving such a state an inevitable failure.

I also agree that a free society is not perfect and never will be because of the reality of human nature that you state.

I also believe that everyone here agrees that individuals who commit real crimes such as theft, arson, assault, rape, murder, child molestation, etc. deserve to be arrested.

I am just trying to persuade people that it is wrong to treat millions of innocent people as criminals just because some of them might commit a crime sometime in the future.

Adults who refuse to be told what they may eat, drink, smoke, or otherwise ingest are not criminals anymore than those who refuse to be told what they may read, write, think, or believe. Peaceful people who exercise their natural, God-given rights are not criminals no matter what any man-made law may say.

 

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"It is a fact that drugs cause people harm and pose many health risks. Drugs also strip the liberty of its users."

You basic premise is wrong. Inert substances ... Read More 

"It is a fact that drugs cause people harm and pose many health risks. Drugs also strip the liberty of its users."

You basic premise is wrong. Inert substances have no will and therefore cannot cause anything. Therefore, all your conclusions based on that premise are not valid.

By the way, the major drugs in the world -- alcohol, cocaine, opiates, and cannabis -- are valuable medicines which have served mankind for hundreds of years. These naturally produced medicines are also the safest drugs. Preparations of coca, opium, cannabis, and alcohol have been safely produced and consumed for centuries. These much-valued herbal medicines also have religious, ceremonial, and recreational uses. They belong in every home and medicine cabinet unless the property owner decides otherwise. Freedom means that you decide for yourself and your fellow human beings decide for themselves. Communisn means that some elite decides for everyone. That is the difference between communism and freedom.

If you want to believe that medicinal plants and extracts are evil substances that destroy all those who possess them unless they are protected by a magic piece of paper called a "license" or "prescription", that is your choice. You are free to believe any voodoo nonsense that you want. But, you don't have the right to murder, assault, rob, and arrest all those who do not share your pagan beliefs about evil substances with supernatural powers. In fact, the purpose of the Second Amendment is to give individuals the means to defend themselves from violent predators such as yourself.

The several hundred million honest, decent human beings who have been declared criminals by thousands of U.S. drug laws are not "illegal drug pushers" who abuse children or other sub-human creatures who need to be cleansed from the planet. Likewise they are not uneducated fools who need you to control their lives. The truth is that they are are no more inferior to you self-proclaimed, drug-free supremacists than the Jews were inferior to the Nazis. In other words, you don't have the right to murder, assault, rob, and arrest millions of innocent people just because they do not pass your voodoo, arbitrary test of purity anymore than the Nazi's had that right.

"You speak of personal responsibility. When has a drug addict ever taken responsibility for the crimes he or she has committed!"

I don't know any "drug addicts". When has any substance-abuse-expert idiot ever taken responsibility for the crimes he or she has committed! I have met many of them and none of them take any responsibility for their crimes against the victims of their wars. In any case, individuals commit crimes, not groups. You are using the unjust principle of guilt by association.

"IM POSITIVE THAT THE FREEDOM YOU SPEAK OF WAS NOT THE FREEDOM THAT WAS INTENDED FOR THIS GREAT NATION."

I'M POSITIVE THAT YOU ARE WRONG. The people who founded this country never outlawed medicinal plants or plant-derived drugs. Opiates, cannabis, and cocaine were completely legal and there were no drug prescription laws. Anyone who proposed such laws would not have been taken seriously by anyone. In fact, the people who founded this country were smugglers, gun owners, and tax resistors. The Founders did not recognize the authority of any government to interfere with honest trade, peaceful behavior, or the right to bear arms. Ultimately, they refused to be stopped and searched for guns and contraband. These facts are the origin of the Second and Fourth Amendments, the heart and soul of this Republic.

Thus, in addition to being violent predators and terrorists who target civilians, drug fighters and illegalizers are also traitors.

Rick -- Freedom_First at verizon.net

PS. The patriot, Patrick Henry, said, "Give me liberty or give me death". None of the founders said, "Give me power and control over others or give me death." I sincerely hope that gain the courage to recognize your immorality and stop advocating violence against peaceful people. I also hope that you do so before any of your victims get the idea to give you a taste of your own medicine. Remember, what comes around goes around. He who lives by the sword might die by the sword.

 

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Subject seems to be socialism once again.

"Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where you don't need it, and hell where they already have it!" -- ... Read More 

Subject seems to be socialism once again.

"Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where you don't need it, and hell where they already have it!" -- Attributed to Ronald Reagan, but I have my doubts as it is suddenly showing up all over the blogosphere. But it's still cool!

 

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“This country was founded on the principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility.”

The problem is that there are too many people running around without personal ... Read More 

“This country was founded on the principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility.”

The problem is that there are too many people running around without personal responsibility. Many of them are running the government.

What you describe is a fantasy land, an idyllic image of what a totally free society should be. The reality of human nature dooms all attempts of achieving such a state an inevitable failure.

The Founding Fathers recognized the need for a limited government. Unfortunately, though they created an almost perfect document for self government, they could not likewise create the perfect populous to forever execute the plan. All their predictions and warnings have been ignored and the provisions to avoid them have been circumvented almost from the beginning and continue to this day. The Constitution is but a faded, blurry reminder of the hopes for a more perfect society, a mere speed bump on the highway toward totalitarian, centralized control by corrupt, power crazed, self indulgent politicians.

 

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Mr Price,

We have not lost the war on drugs within our borders. Drugs are not manufactured in masses within the US. Most of these illegal drugs consumed by americans ... Read More 

Mr Price,

We have not lost the war on drugs within our borders. Drugs are not manufactured in masses within the US. Most of these illegal drugs consumed by americans are imported from other countries. Unless we stand shoulder to shoulder along the edges of the US borders covering every single inch, the war on illegal drugs will continue to be a challenging battle.

What we need is more cooperation from the governments of these drug producing countries. We are seeing success in countries in which governments are willing to cooperate and join the US in the war against drugs.

If the price of street drugs has increased then that would suggest to me that it is getting just a little more difficult for drug dealers to distribute.

As for the users in prisons, most users and even dealers are usually not sent to prison on their first couple of offenses. Many are sentenced to probation and ordered to enroll or attend some kind of drug prevention program. They are given fair opportunity to steer away from that type of life style. What is the law to do when they have given these people opportunity and they continue to relapse and commit crimes against innocent people. You have no choice but to put them away. The point is that most of these users or pushers are repeat offenders. So you are wrong when you state that we have failed to deal objectively with the problem. No one has failed them but themselves!

 

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"It is very easy. This country was founded on the principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility."

You speak of personal responsibility. When ... Read More 

"It is very easy. This country was founded on the principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility."

You speak of personal responsibility. When has a drug addict ever taken responsibility for the crimes he or she has commited! My point is that most illegal drugs impair the judjment of the user. The user (criminal) normaly blames it on the drug, stating that he or she was not in his right state of mind when he or she commited the crime.

Most drug users are uneducated on the effects of drugs and that is one of the reasons drug pushing is illegal. A drug pusher tells his customer "here take this it will make you feel good." When I pick up a prescription drug from the pharmacy, the pharmacist educates me on what the drug is for and how to use it. It also comes with a peice of paper that explains the possible side effects. I then have a choice to take it or give it to my children or whom ever the prescription is for.

Many liberals have taken liberalism and used it in manner in which is was not intended. The declaration of independence states that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

John Locke was an 17th century english physician and philosopher who's words are echoed in the declaration of independence. John Locke is often credited with the philosophical foundations of modern liberalism. He wrote "no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.

It is a fact that drugs cause people harm and pose many health risks. Drugs also strip the liberty of its users. A drug addict or alcoholic are prisoners of the substance that controls their cravings, thoughts, feelings and actions. Drugs also strip users of their possesions and influnces them to strip others of their possesions as well.

IM POSITIVE THAT THE FREEDOM YOU SPEAK OF WAS NOT THE FREEDOM THAT WAS INTENDED FOR THIS GREAT NATION.

 

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"I dont understand the comparison between an illegal drug pusher and a pharmacuetical company."

It is very easy. This country was founded on the principle ... Read More 

"I dont understand the comparison between an illegal drug pusher and a pharmacuetical company."

It is very easy. This country was founded on the principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility. Freedom includes the right to earn a living in a free market. Free enterprise or economic freedom means that individuals have a fundamental right to buy, sell, trade, hire, fire, or whatever according to the two simple rules of the free market which are no force and no fraud.

Freedom means that all economic exchanges are voluntary associations. No one may be forced to buy, sell, or consume. And, no one has the right to stand between a willing buyer and a willing seller. Freedom means that you have the right to buy drugs or any other commodity from whoever you want as long as they are willing to sell at an agreed upon price. It means that no one can force you to do business with someone whom you do not want to do business with.

Freedom means that no one has the right to illegalize drugs. Certainly, no one has the right to illegalize medicinal plants or plant extracts. Green plants are part of natures bounty. No one may claim to own all plants. It would be like some idiot proclaiming that he owns all the oak trees in the world just like some idiot prohibitionists do today with other plants. The people who own plants are those who own the land where they grow. Freedom means that farmers and gardeners can grow whatever they want without getting permission from any third party.

Freedom means that there is no such thing as an "illegal drug pusher". Freedom means that honest trade is legal. Freedom means that anyone may honestly and freely compete with any pharmacuetical company or any other company.

Freedom means that no one has the right to murder, assault, rob, and arrest peaceful people who are minding their own business.

Freedom means that all those who supported the war on alcohol consumers, producers, and dealers or "pushers" during that war (alcohol Prohibition) were freedom violating thugs as well as violent predators just like today's drug fighters and illegalizers. All laws that violate natural rights are void and those who support those laws are criminals. Other examples would be sex and gambling laws or the laws in Nazi Germany that illegalized Jews and their religion.

Freedom also includes the right of self-defense which means the right to buy guns and ammo so that anyone can defend themselves from violent predators. In an armed society, governments can be prevented from scapegoating and persecuting unpopular minorities such as drug wars against the young and the poor or racist wars or any other wars against freedom because the victims will arm themselves and fight back. People with access to the means of self-defense don't lick boots and don't put up with freedom-violating governments.

In the words of Thomas Jefferson, "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

In the words of Abraham Lincoln, "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

I hope that this helps because I am trying to educate the public about their heritage of liberty and the principles of freedom upon which this country was founded.

Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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I dont understand the comparison between an illegal drug pusher and a pharmacuetical company.

I have never heard of a patient on a prescription drug go out and steal ... Read More 

I dont understand the comparison between an illegal drug pusher and a pharmacuetical company.

I have never heard of a patient on a prescription drug go out and steal or kill or even sell their a_ _ for a refill.

In my opinion I beleive that the war on drugs is not a waste. If a dealer gets busted with 100 pounds of pot or a kilo of coke then that liitle bit might have just saved a couple of lives.

It is impossible to apprehend every single drug dealer out there. Therefore the battle needs to start at home with parents educating themselves and their children on the dangers of illegal drugs. Many communities that were previously infested with crime and drugs are being saved because people in the communities are taking a stand.

Many americans want to point the finger at authorities or society but the fact remains that everyone has a choice, unless your held at gun point you have the choice to use or refuse.

The price of the ingredients being a fraction of the cost of what they sell for may be a true statement. But your forgetting about the other charges like the manufacturing of the drug and the pharmacist (legal drug dealer) who is there to assure that the medication your consuming is safe.

 

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"If you don't like the cost of drugs, try making your own."

It is too risky for me. Because of your war on freedom and free markets, anyone who does so can ... Read More 

"If you don't like the cost of drugs, try making your own."

It is too risky for me. Because of your war on freedom and free markets, anyone who does so can be legally murdered, assaulted, robbed, and arrested by the armies of government goons who are paid to protect the profits of the government-licensed drug cartel. In fact, after more than two decades of escalating your war against freedom and millions of arrests, military-style assaults against peaceful people are now taking place in every city and town across this once-free country. There are now thousands of heavily armed government gangs that specialize in using Gestapo tactics against peaceful people. They break down doors, invade homes, terrorize families, and murder anyone who resists. They attack suspects, throw them to the ground, push faces into the pavement, point guns at heads, and even blow heads off in the name of fighting drugs. In fact, the war on drug owners has expanded to include gun owners. Drug and gun raids look just like the Nazis rounding up Jews.

As a result of your war against freedom and the millions of drug arrests, the U.S. today has more people in prison per capita than any other country. Are you proud of helping to transform the "land of the free" into the world's leading prison state?

 

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"Here is your original premise that supported your entire argument until.."

No. My original premise is that human beings have natural rights such as the right ... Read More 

"Here is your original premise that supported your entire argument until.."

No. My original premise is that human beings have natural rights such as the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Individuals have the right to live their own life according their own values which includes the right to choose their own food, drink, medicine, and everything else. Freedom means that every adult human being has the right to do whatever he wants as long as he does not harm the person or property of another.

Freedom means that prohibitionists such as yourself and other violent thugs do not have the right to murder, assault, rob, or arrest their fellow humans for exerciseing their natural rights. You do not have the right to illegalize freedom or basic rights. You do not have the right to point a gun at another person's head just because you do not approve of what that person eats for breakfast or drinks, or otherwise ingests. Likewise, freedom means that you do not have the right to authorize others to commit these crimes in the name of some law. Freedom also includes the right of self-defense. Every individual has the right to arm himself in order to defend himself from violent predators which includes prohibitionists and other illegalizers.

"You call yourself a libertarian, but what part of liberty don't you understand? A free market capitalist is the ultimate libertarian. Profit, at whatever percent of costs, should not be regulated except by the demand. "

I am a defender of free people and free markets incuding a free market in drugs. It is you and your fellow illegalizers that support the illegalization of medicinal plants, not me. It is you, not me, who supports the war against consumers, producers, and distributors who support the free market. What part of liberty don't you understand?

"Prohibition was repealed, Cheech. But, thanks for making my point. "

Thank you, Carrie Nation, for making my point which is to repeal drug Prohibition, the policy that YOU support. Do you finally see that Prohibitionists are violent lunatics who need to be slapped down? Do you finally admit the truth that it is WRONG to murder, assault, rob, and arrest people just because you do not approve of what they eat, drink, or smoke?

 

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"So, according to your prohibitionist beliefs, it was a good idea to treat grandpa as a criminal"

Not what I said, or implied. You were talking about the cost ... Read More 

"So, according to your prohibitionist beliefs, it was a good idea to treat grandpa as a criminal"

Not what I said, or implied. You were talking about the cost of drugs being too high, considering the cost of the ingredients. My rebuttal: Corn and sugar are cheap to buy, but a fine whiskey is not. I never said to send in the revenuers into the woods to arrest anyone. I never mentioned the word prohibition. In fact, I never mentioned the government at all. I just recognize the value added to the final product, the same as I recognize the value of the final products from "Big Pharma".

Here is your original premise that supported your entire argument until you lapsed into a spasm of nonsensical, inflamatory rhetoric:

"...The cost of the active ingredient is $0.60. The percent markup is 21,712%." Remember that, Cheech?

You call yourself a libertarian, but what part of liberty don't you understand? A free market capitalist is the ultimate libertarian. Profit, at whatever percent of costs, should not be regulated except by the demand.

If you don't like the cost of drugs, try making your own.

"it was alcohol Prohibition (the war against alcohol producers, consumers, and dealers) that produced tons of adulterated and improperly manufactured booze that killed, maimed, and blinded people."

Prohibition was repealed, Cheech. But, thanks for making my point.

 

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"The cost of the corn and sugar is a tiny fraction of what I'd pay for a bottle of Jack Daniels, but there ain't no comparison between that and moonshine cooked up ... Read More 

"The cost of the corn and sugar is a tiny fraction of what I'd pay for a bottle of Jack Daniels, but there ain't no comparison between that and moonshine cooked up in the back woods by just anybody with a rough idea of how grandpa used to do it."

So, according to your prohibitionist beliefs, it was a good idea to treat grandpa as a criminal along with millions of other innocent people in order to "protect the children" from beer drinkers and whiskey drinkers. I bet that your grandpa would be totally embarrassed by your disloyalty and your collectivist ideology.

I have known several people who make home brew which is excellent. One of my best friends is a home brew enthusiast who bottles his own for about one fifth of the retail price. Now, you must admit that 500% is a lot less than 40,000%. In any case, freedom means that it is the individual, not the collective, who decides what he drinks. Communism means that the collective decides.

For your information, it was alcohol Prohibition (the war against alcohol producers, consumers, and dealers) that produced tons of adulterated and improperly manufactured booze that killed, maimed, and blinded people. The people who were responsible for all that human misery were the drug fighters and illegalizers because it was their war. They used government guns and goons in order to prevent people from buying safe, properly labeled alcohol in a free market.

Also, FYI, a person does not need to be a rocket scientist in order to brew beer or grow medicinal plants. Alcohol, medicinal plants, and extracts have been safely produced and consumed throughout history.

By the way, during the evil war on alcohol consumers (Prohibition), it was not the beer drinkers or brewers like your grandpa who were the criminals. The real criminals were the drug fighters and illegalizers because they used violence (the law) against peaceful people who were minding their own business. Drug fighters and illegalizers are communist thugs who are in need to be confronted and educated about freedom.

 

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"Exactly correct. The problem is that if you decide to get yourself hooked on heroin or crack cocaine and you start robbing folks to get money to pay for your habbit, ... Read More 

"Exactly correct. The problem is that if you decide to get yourself hooked on heroin or crack cocaine and you start robbing folks to get money to pay for your habbit, you are now doing harm to others and you need to lose your freedom."

Exactly. Robbery is a real crime. Just like when some "drug-free" idiot commits a robbery, he has also committed a real crime. And, I am sure that you will agree that it would be unjust to put you in prison just because you belonged to the same group as some knucklehead who committed a crime. Perhaps you can now agree that individuals commit crimes, not groups. And, it is WRONG to punish innocent people.

"Even if the drugs were so cheap that you could afford to buy them with your welfare check..."

I am a libertarian who opposes the welfare-warfare state.

"Furthermore, if the drugs were that cheap, they would be so readily available that children..."

It is your drug war and war propaganda that has brought young people into the black market in drugs. You created the black market by outlawing the free market. You tempt little children by creating a forbidden fruit and give them the opportunity to earn money in a black market. The biggest danger to young people is to murdered, assaulted, robbed, and arrested by the armies of government and private thugs that have been produced and and are being sustained by your evil war against human beings and their freedoms. Your drug war has destroyed the lives of millions of young people by putting them in prison and millions more by putting their parents in your prisons.

"..they would have to watch their children turn into drug addicts like you."

It sounds like you are addicted to power and control like some fascist thug who thinks that he belongs to some drug-free master race and wants to cleanse from the earth all those who don't pass his test of purity. I would say that you are a terrible role model.

Likewise, your continued insistence to hurl insults from a very safe distance does not say much for your character. Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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"you have the right to do whatever you want as long as you do not harm the person or property of another."

Exactly correct. The problem is that if you decide ... Read More 

"you have the right to do whatever you want as long as you do not harm the person or property of another."

Exactly correct. The problem is that if you decide to get yourself hooked on heroin or crack cocaine and you start robbing folks to get money to pay for your habbit, you are now doing harm to others and you need to lose your freedom. Even if the drugs were so cheap that you could afford to buy them with your welfare check, I believe that is harming me because my taxes are paying for your drugs.

Furthermore, if the drugs were that cheap, they would be so readily available that children could obtain them and that would not only harm them but it would also harm their parents because they would have to watch their children turn into drug addicts like you.

 

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"The cost of a few ounces of lye is also a tiny fraction of the cost of a bar of Ivory soap, but I don't want to trust my butt to just anybody with a big kettle and ... Read More 

"The cost of a few ounces of lye is also a tiny fraction of the cost of a bar of Ivory soap, but I don't want to trust my butt to just anybody with a big kettle and a campfire."

Rock'n chair Rambler -- In a free country, you do not have to "trust your butt to just anybody". Freedom means that you decide what is best for you and your neighbor decides what is best for him.

The freedom philosophy, the foundation of this country, is very easy to understand. It means that you have the right to do whatever you want as long as you do not harm the person or property of another.

 

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"Believe it or not, Cheech, some people are stupid and have no self control and actually need to be spoon fed some dangerous stuff, like, dope." ... Read More 

"Believe it or not, Cheech, some people are stupid and have no self control and actually need to be spoon fed some dangerous stuff, like, dope."

Rock'n chair Rambler -- Regarding all these stupid adults who are so stupid that they do not have the right to choose their own food, drink, and medicine, I have a few questions:

1) Are you one of them?

2) Who decides if you are too stupid to control your own life?

3) Out of all the people that you have personally known such as family members, friends, neighbors, relatives, and associates, how many of them would you describe as being too stupid to be free? Out of all those inferior beings, how many have you personally confronted about their stupidity or do you just insult people from a very safe distance?

4) Suppose that one of your friends, relatives, or neighbors that you have decided is too stupid to be free disagrees with you and gives you the choice to bacdafucup or get a well-deserved lesson in manners, how would you respond?

5) Suppose that someone or group thought that you were too stupid to choose your own food, drink, and medicine, would you agree to be spoon-fed for the rest of your life?

6) Since you do not defend the Constitutional and universal principle of individual freedom and personal responsibility, are you proud to be a communist?

 

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"the cost of the active ingredients in a pill is a tiny, tiny fraction of what the consumer is charged."

Yeah, the cost of 148 grains of gunpowder is also ... Read More 

"the cost of the active ingredients in a pill is a tiny, tiny fraction of what the consumer is charged."

Yeah, the cost of 148 grains of gunpowder is also a tiny fraction of the cost of a Remington manufactured bullet. But, I don't think I want to trust my life to just anybody with a can of gunpowder and a piece of brass tubing.

The cost of a few ounces of lye is also a tiny fraction of the cost of a bar of Ivory soap, but I don't want to trust my butt to just anybody with a big kettle and a campfire.

The cost of the corn and sugar is a tiny fraction of what I'd pay for a bottle of Jack Daniels, but there ain't no comparison between that and moonshine cooked up in the back woods by just anybody with a rough idea of how grandpa used to do it.

 

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I think Freebase First knows waaaay too much about the cost of drugs. (Oh wow..., Like, far out, maaan)

"....(Big Pharma) who are the biggest drug producers and ... Read More 

I think Freebase First knows waaaay too much about the cost of drugs. (Oh wow..., Like, far out, maaan)

"....(Big Pharma) who are the biggest drug producers and pushers."

Big Pharma, eh? Where did you get that term, some pro-Obama-care website? Harry Reid's last speech, perhaps? Michael Moore's last distortumentory?

Only one problem with the analogy. "Big Pharma" are legal companies, doing legal business, producing legal products which are subject to rigouous testing by the FDA and marketed through legal markets for which they spend billions, so that doctors can help ease someone's pain or cure some illness.

And yeah, they make a big profit. Next time you get an infection from a dirty needle, be thankful "Big Pharma" spent the money to develop and market the legal drugs your doctor prescribes to keep you alive. What's that worth to ya, Cheech?

"The safest and most effective pain medicines are opiates."

The safest? eh, I don't think so, Cheech. Ya see, there is this little problem with overdose and addiction. Most effective? Yeah, so is a bullet between the eyes.

Believe it or not, Cheech, some people are stupid and have no self control and actually need to be spoon fed some dangerous stuff, like, dope. Enter the trained Doctor who is supposed to be able to use opiate derivatives in a reasonably safe manner, not merely dispensed by some pimple faced soda jerk at the local burger joint or dead-head pot store in downtown Berkeley, Californica or Boston, Methed-up-chusettes.

 

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A doctor compiled a list of twenty popular prescription drugs, the cost of the active ingredients, and the price that is charged to the consumer. The first one on the list ... Read More 

A doctor compiled a list of twenty popular prescription drugs, the cost of the active ingredients, and the price that is charged to the consumer. The first one on the list is drug called "celebrex 100 mg". Consumer price for 100 pills is $130.27. The cost of the active ingredient is $0.60. The percent markup is 21,712%. When you add the price of the prescription which is about $100, the true markup is closer to 40,000%. The government-licensed drug cartel recieves $230 for something that costs sixty cents. Anyone who trys to honestly compete with these thieves will be hit by a SWAT Team. They will be treated like they are worse than murderers, similar to the Jews in Nazi Germany. And, the brain-washed, marching morons will praise the government thugs for "getting tough", "protecting the children", "fighting drugs", etc. In a free market, no one would pay $230 for something that they could buy for one dollar. Stretch, I hope that this example answers your question.

Now, I have two questions for drug fighters and illegalizers regarding what is a crime and who are the criminals: Suppose that you were peacefully minding your own business when a heavily armed gang attacked you, threw you to the ground, pushed your face into the pavement, pointed a dozen guns at your head, and blew your head off if you resisted, just because they or others did not approve of what you ate for breakfast -- would you agree that they were violent criminals or would you conclude that you were the criminal?

Second question: Suppose that a similar gang, armed to the teeth in full body armor, kicked down your door, invaded and ransacked your home, terrorized your family, stole your property, and murdered anyone who resisted, just because they or others did not approve of what you chose to drink or smoke -- would you agree that those thugs were violent criminals or would you conclude that your family were the violent criminals? Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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"It would be interesting to know how an effort to stop the flow of illegal drugs (meth, cocaine, heroine, etc.) would cause higher prices for "basic medicines"." ... Read More 

"It would be interesting to know how an effort to stop the flow of illegal drugs (meth, cocaine, heroine, etc.) would cause higher prices for "basic medicines"."

Big Stretch -- Here is one example. The safest and most effective pain medicines are opiates. The price that a consumer pays for a one month supply of morphine is about $200 plus another $100 for the piece of paper (prescription) or $3,600 per year. The cost to produce that amount of morphine is pennies, two or three dollars at most.

Currently, for most prescription drugs, the cost of the active ingredients in a pill is a tiny, tiny fraction of what the consumer is charged. The above example is typical. By the way, morphine and heroin (diacetyl-morphine) are practically the same drug.

Consumers, like all other taxpayers, are also forced to pay billions of dollars every year to pay for the drug Prohibition war.

 

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Freedom First

"The purpose of the drug war...is to force everyone to pay astronomical prices for basic medicines."

It would be interesting to know how an ... Read More 

Freedom First

"The purpose of the drug war...is to force everyone to pay astronomical prices for basic medicines."

It would be interesting to know how an effort to stop the flow of illegal drugs (meth, cocaine, heroine, etc.) would cause higher prices for "basic medicines".

 

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Rock'n chair Rambler has been completely brainwashed by drug war propaganda. For example, he speaks of the "right of parents to raise their kids in a drug free country.", ... Read More 

Rock'n chair Rambler has been completely brainwashed by drug war propaganda. For example, he speaks of the "right of parents to raise their kids in a drug free country.", which is laughable because it is the government-licensed drug cartel (Big Pharma) who are the biggest drug producers and pushers. The country is drowning in Big Pharma drugs. The reason why medicinal plants have been outlawed is because they are not patentable and can be produced by peasant farmers and other poor people. The purpose of the drug war, in addition to the destruction of freedom, is to force everyone to pay astronomical prices for basic medicines. Rick Freedom_First at verizon.net

 

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Mexico has a private paramilitary army, Los Zetas (The Z's) train by our special forces, the defected from the Mexican army, started working for hire for the cartels, but ... Read More 

Mexico has a private paramilitary army, Los Zetas (The Z's) train by our special forces, the defected from the Mexican army, started working for hire for the cartels, but now are even kinda a cartel themselves. Perhaps worse than the Farc.

 

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" Rather than provide treatment or counseling to drug users, we have warehoused them in prisons."

I believe we already spend billions on treatment and counseling ... Read More 

" Rather than provide treatment or counseling to drug users, we have warehoused them in prisons."

I believe we already spend billions on treatment and counseling with little effect. You can't talk someone out of an addiction.
The culture is sick and the system is corrupt. The ACLU is more concerned with criminal drug pusher's and illegal alien's rights than victim's rights and the right of parents to raise their kids in a drug free country. The Courts let criminals go free on technicalities and send Border Patrol Officers to prison for trying to stop drug smugglers. Hollyweird and the music industry glamorize drug use and demonize American society and values and particularly white males. Politicians protect them and appoint more liberal judges to the bench. The Media does nothing but protect the politicians. Schools ban drugs and God as though they were of equal danger.

Gee....wonder why we have a drug problem?